Customer canceling $1000 purchase
Dear Plimus, Please let us know what is the fee applied by your bank when a customer transfers money from Europe to USA? Who will support this fee? You or the customer? If it is the customer, the amount will be specified in the invoice? -- We ask this because we receive several emails like this from customers. We have other additional cases in which the customer demonstrated (receipt send from bank) that he sent the full amount but only a part of that a amount reach us. ================================================================= I have been trying to buy 2 licenses. Since our institute in EU requires an invoice (a quote is not sufficient) for payment, I have contacted and tried to make the order through Plimus using purchase order. The problem arises in the transfer fees. Our institute will only pay the amount stipulated on the invoice and only pay this sum via a bank transfer. The bank we use waive transfer fees but those charged by the receiving bank are unknown (as they are not on the invoice) and thus the amount received by your company is less than the value of your product. The Plimus support team can not/will not make an invoice which include transfer fees and therefore the purchase is blocked. As you are the company using and authorizing Plimus's work, could you please try to think of a solution so I can make the purchase (for instance adding extra charges to an invoice)? In short, I only require an invoice with a sum that once transferred will give me the final keys (licenses) to your program. Needless to say that if no solution can be found then I will have to annul the purchase.
© 2001-2010 Plimus Corporation, Inc.
Fees on Bank Transfers
Hi there,
Thanks for your post. Sorry to hear about the problem. I am passing this over to our Support team but to really help you I need your Plimus ID and any ticket number relating to this matter, so that we can advise on the basis of your product set up etc. Please send the details to me.
Thanks,
Derek, Plimus
Fees on Transfers
Hi,
At the time of writing I still do not have details of your Vendor ID or ticket numbers to pass to our support team.
Nevertheless, I am showing below for general clarity the details of the order page process for wire transfers that makes it clear to a customer that to avoid conversion fees and delays Payment is in US Dollars, that the customer is required to pay all possible transfer fees, and that the reference number must be included.
Furthermore, the page clearly illustrates that the customer's bank fees need to be added to come to the final total order value, and that these must be provided by the customer's bank. Any Plimus fees relating to the transfer such as manual process fees and international wire fee are clearly shown.
This process can be checked and illustrated by viewing your own order form through a wire purchase or setting up the process flows and checking them in detail using the Plimus Sandbox account.
If you require any further information we would be happy to assist further, but I will need your relevant Vendor ID and ticket numbers.
Thanks,
Derek, Plimus
Are you kidding me? Plimus
Are you kidding me?
Plimus support (Delise) clearly says that there will be additional fees that will not appear on the invoice. Look how the poor customers goes in circles with Plimus support. The customer was ready to drop the purchase (I wonder how many other were lost) as they have to pay from their own pocket goods purchased for the company where they work. Any amount that is NOT specified in the invoice needs to be paid from customer's pocket!!!
>>> Hello,
>>> ... however if you intend for us to process this a purchase order that you will later pay via wire transfer please remove the wire fee from the PO so the figure will match quote figure of $751.50 - and resubmit your request for processing.
>>> Regards,
>>> Delsie-Plimus Support
>> Dear Delsie,
... However, if the transfer costs of your bank are different please send me a new quote and I can try to get a new PO made with the corresponding fee.
>> Regards,
>> P.
>> Hello,
>> Wire transfers can incur additional charges that we cannot include on the invoice, you may want to choose a different method of payment.
>> Regards,
>> Delsie-Plimus Support
> Hello,
> We can not make payment in any other way. I still want the licenses so could you please find a way to add the fees and send me an invoice with the total.
> Regards,
> P.
> Hello,
> Unfortunately we cannot add the wire fees to the invoice for purchase order, if you wish to pay by wire you can but we will not be able to process the
> order until we received the wired funds.
> Regards,
> Delsie-Plimus Support
Hi Derek. Sorry, I have never
Hi Derek.
Sorry, I have never seen that piece of information until now. Since when has been added?
Thanks
PS:
This is a step forward but it solves only 50% of the problem: the customer still needs documents to demonstrate that it has been charged the wire transfer fee.
Greedy USA bank
We all know that Plimus' good part is the number of features it offers but the really week part is the support. So, as usual, the Plimus support does not answer (to me - the customer just sent me a copy of a recent email from Plimus, so Plimus support guys are there - they are just ignoring my uncomfortable emails).
--------
The issue is not related with my product's setup but with the fact that Plimus charges the customer more money than specified on invoice. This is because your USA bank charges a fee for wire transfer. So, if the customer has to pay $1000 for the product, it actually has to pay a large fee for wire transfer.
The thing is that the transfer fee is not printed on invoice!! Therefore, the customers that are working in a company/organization have to pay that wire transfer fee from their own pocket. The administration of the company will pay only what is printed on the invoice.
All my customers that purchased with PO/WireTransfer are extremely pissed off and yesterday for the first time I have seen from an email that they knew/communicated somehow about this issue (probably on a forum).
So, Plimus is creating BAD REPUTATION to its vendors!
You have to change this. All you have to do is to include that damn tax on the invoice or to get rid of your greedy bank and move to a better one.
Received incomplete payment for xxxx
So, this is probably the same reason why I sometimes receive the "Received incomplete payment for xxxx" emails from Plimus, and loose some customers when I'm not willing to accept the difference!
"We have received an incomplete payment of $xxx.xx for your xxxxxx instead of $xxx.xx
The apparent reason for the missing funds seems to be due to a currency conversion issue or that the fees that the customer should have paid to the bank have been deducted from this amount.
Please inform us if you agree to accept this incomplete payment or if you would like us to contact the customer and request the outstanding amount of $xxx before processing this order."
So, the "apparent reason" is not currency conversion, but because the bank, Plimus uses to receive the wire transfer, charges a fee?!! I suspected of this already and, if this is the real reason, it's totally unacceptable.
Customer must know the total amount he must transfer, in the currency selected at the order form, and that same value should be expressed in the invoice. Is not even legal to do it differently.
PLIMUS SUPPORT STILL PLAYING DEAD
.
>So, the "apparent reason" is not currency conversion, but because the bank, Plimus uses to receive the wire transfer, charges a fee?!!
OH YES!
If you sell a stuff of $100 and the customer has to pay another $30 for wire transfer. If they pay $100 then only $70 will reach you. At this point you will have to decide if you want to cancel the order and lose the customer, accept the missing amount or argue with the customer trying to convince him to pay the rest of the money (this also involves a change of losing the customer). So the tax taken by Plimus is not only 4.5%. You will have to add also the wire transfer fee.
.
.
.
.
The worst is that in the emails I sent last year to Plimus (yes this problem is few years old) Plimus told me that their bank charges no additional fees. I still have the emails from Plimus. I don't know how to call it if not a lie.
I sent few days ago the same set of questions to Plimus. They preferred not to answer this time. NOT EVEN A SINGLE LINE!
Have you proofs of this?
Have you proofs of this, invoice hidden, income wire fee?
I know some banks charge a fee for income wire transfers, but that is charged from the account that receive it, not from the one that sends it.
Outgoing transfers always have a fee, and Plimus clearly alerts customers they should include that amount in the payment, but because this is specific to the customer bank, Plimus can't inform customer about the value, he should check with his bank to know it.
Even so, I once received two of this "Received incomplete payment for" emails, from two different customers and currencies, in the same day, and the amount in fault was exactly the same, so not easy to understand, if problem is really only related to exchange rates.
And if exchange rates are the only problem, Plimus should tell to the customer the amount in USD he should transfer, and not the amount in customer chosen currency, and accept the minimum risk of exchange rates differences between the purchase day and effective wire transfer day.
Plimus should disclose all these hidden fees
Want proof? Read my original post. See email sent by customer regarding discussion between him and Plimus. More proof? You have it in your hand. You just said that you already have it as two incomplete-payment orders. We receive a lot of those! The customers sent fax of wire transfer document obtained from bank showing that they sent the FULL amount specified on invoice. How is it possible to send the $840 amount and receive $810? While the customer sent proof, Plimus refuses to send also proof (to show also bank documents showing amount receive).
As I just said, I sent lots of emails to Plimus about this new incident. Plimus support is as quiet as a dead fish in a bowl. I got not even a single email back. They are not on holiday for a month in Mount Everest, as they answer to my client quite few emails. They are just silent about this secret fee. They do not want to admit it is an additional fee to what they charge.
Maybe you can also ask your customer to send proof of full payment (official document from bank) then ask Plimus where is the missing amount. Then let us know.
Plimus, we want a public reply on this.
Sorry, my fault. I forgot what I had read in your first post, back then when you initiated this topic.
Anyway, I don't have that much sells paid by wire transfers, to get this problem often, and my last problematic one, that even failed to resolve, is from back May. So it's too late to ask to a "pissed off" customer for that information.
Any idea why this problem only happens sometimes?
Have you tried to contacted the bank Plimus use, to inquire about this fee.
And I think this topic deserves a public reply by someone from Plimus, not just the common "please contact vendor support" reply we see here for even generic, that we all want to know, questions.
> Have you tried to contacted
> Have you tried to contacted the bank Plimus use, to inquire about this fee.
Last year they responded that their bank takes no additional fee - though substantial amounts were missing. This week, when I addressed the question again they didn't answered AT ALL!!
However, the customer was kind enough (I had to offer him some goods for free to make him less pissed off) to send full discussion thread with Plimus support. Plimus addmited to him that additional fees will appear. These fees are unknown (random) and therefore are not put on the invoice.
NOTE: The customer is from Europe (Spain) where the banks takes no fee for wire transfer.
.
.
.
.
.
.
>>> Hello,
>>> ... however if you intend for us to process this a purchase order that you will later pay via wire transfer please remove the wire fee from the PO so the figure will match quote figure of $751.50 - and resubmit your request for processing.
>>> Regards,
>>> Delsie-Plimus Support
>> Dear Delsie,
... However, if the transfer costs of your bank are different please send me a new quote and I can try to get a new PO made with the corresponding fee.
>> Regards,
>> P.
>> Hello,
>> Wire transfers can incur additional charges that we cannot include on the invoice, you may want to choose a different method of payment.
>> Regards,
>> Delsie-Plimus Support
> Hello,
> We can not make payment in any other way. I still want the licenses so could you please find a way to add the fees and send me an invoice with the total.
> Regards,
> P.
> Hello,
> Unfortunately we cannot add the wire fees to the invoice for purchase order, if you wish to pay by wire you can but we will not be able to process the
> order until we received the wired funds.
> Regards,
> Delsie-Plimus Support
(I had to remove customer's name)
And it happens again, and again, and again....
And it happens again, and again, and again....
-------------------------------------------------
Hello,
Your customer sent a wire payment for order #xyz, but they underpaid by USD 37. Will you accept this shortfall, or would you like us to contact the customer to ask for additional payment? (The apparent reason for the shortfall is that intermediary bank fees were deducted.)
Regards,
Youmna-Plimus Payments
shortfall@plimus.com
Ongoing Issue
Perhaps you need to make this requirement clearer on your own site so that your customers are more aware of this potential issue?
Alternatively you may open a support ticket to seek further guidance from our Support team.
Thanks,
Derek, Plimus
Hard to believe
And you want to say with this that these intermediary bank fees are charged by the customer bank?!
So you go to your bank and tell to transfer x to a specific account, and they charge their service fee from that amount? I don't know what's the problem, but this is hard to believe.
Wire transfer is free in EU
In most EU country the wire transfer is FREE! The charge is made by Plimus side bank not by the European bank.
Anyway, Plimus staff cannot understand the issue: the customer cannot pay the extra wire transfer fee unless it is stated on the PO.
Dollar Euro Converter
The U.S. dollar is the currency most used in international transactions. The Eurozone consists of Austria, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg. Dollar Euro Converter provides our customers with the ability to instantly convert between 2 currencies. Dollar Euro Converter is in contrast to the commonly available but clumsy converters that require extra clicks on separate Convert buttons in order to get the desired conversion result.
Intermediary Bank Fees
We can confirm that Intermediary banks fees are often charged and we have no control over them -- they come from the customer's side of the process.
The suggestion that these fees are being levied from the Plimus side of the transaction is totally incorrect. We make it clear to the customer that banks fees may be charged on his/her side and that they need to cover them directly. If they are not covered a Vendor has the option to receive a reduced net payment or have the matter redirected back to the customer.
To suggest that Plimus is to blame when the customer turns a blind eye to meeting such obligations is somewhat unfair.
As for the suggestion that EU banks do not charge wire fees.. my personal experience in UK is that I am charged around £32 by my bank for each transfer, so something is wrong with this assertion.
Thanks,
Derek
Hope I can finally get an answer!!
Hi Derek.
Can you tell me EXACTLY how to do that?
If the customer placed an order of $1000 (and this number is clearly stated on the PO) how can he pay extra? And how much he should pay extra? The customer will take the PO to his 'Purchases' department. The department will not authorize a payment of $1050 when the PO clearly states 1000!!!
Can you provide a clear answer to this? Especially when the customer is from EU and his bank changes NO fees for wire transfer?
Notification to Customers
I am setting out below the instructions we issue to Customers.
The fees you are referring to are not part of the transaction -- they are ancillary fees charged by the customer's own or intermediary bank. If you feel that these instructions (particularly the last paragraph) are insufficient then you can issue additional advice to your customers.
The extra $50 referred to in your example is not part of the transaction and is not one we can invoice for. It is a fee coming from the customer's bank. Presumably the person handling the PO will be able to explain to his purchases department that bank fees are not product fees. If not then perhaps you would be safer opting to deduct the fees from your revenue to ensure the sale goes through.
Thanks,
Derek, Plimus
++++++++++++++++++++++
Wire Instructions
Please note your reference number MUST be included in your payment. If this number is not sent, we will NOT be able to process your order, nor will we be able to let you know that the money has been received. Make sure you tell your banker that this number MUST arrive with your payment.
Make your payment to:
Plimus, Inc.
142 N. Milpitas Blvd. #435
Milpitas, CA 95035-2730
USA
Bank Information:
Name: Bank Leumi USA
Address: 2000 University Avenue
E. Palo Alto, CA 94303
USA
SWIFT: LUMIUS3N
Account #: 8200335101
Routing Number/ABA: 122236244
Reference Number: [MUST BE INCLUDED]
Please note that, even though a wire transfer may only take two business days to arrive, it may take up to 5 more business days for us to complete your order. Once that happens, you will receive a confirmation e-mail from us. In this e-mail you will receive a reference number for your order and detailed information regarding payment and delivery. There is no need to take further action until you have received this confirmation e-mail from us. If you do not hear from us within 10 business days after your wire transfer has been sent, please contact us at sales@plimus.com.
IMPORTANT:
- The outgoing fees that your bank (or any other intermediate bank, if applicable) charges are NOT included in your total and MUST be paid separately to your bank. If these fees are deducted from the subtotal given, we WILL NOT be able to process your order and you will be asked to transfer the balance of the total before we can proceed.
- Make sure your wire is sent in USD (United States Dollars) to avoid any conversion fees which will delay the processing of your order.
- Please consult your banker to find out what these fees are, as you are responsible for paying ALL transfer fees. We cannot process or refund partially paid orders!
You cannot just pay for a service without getting a receipt back
Hi Derek.
Thanks for your answer. I will comment below the answer you provided:
1.
> Please consult your banker to find out what these fees are, as you are responsible for paying ALL transfer fees.
In most countries in EU, the wire transfer is ABSOLUTELY FREE but still we have many customers from EU that have "lost" some money during transfer. They demonstrated that they deposited the right amount but you received less than that. So the charge must be on your side (USA bank). How can the EU bank know how much the USA bank will charge?
2.
> The outgoing fees that your bank (or any other intermediate bank, if applicable) charges are NOT included in your total and MUST be paid separately to your bank
Even if the customer can find out how much you (or your USA bank) will charge for the wire transfer, they will NEVER EVER be able to pay that fee. In Europe (and probably all over the world) a company needs to demonstrate with paper ever single dollar it spends on stuff. The "purchasing" department cannot just the safe and take $50 without having a paper to demonstrate how that money was spent. The name for doing that is STEALING.
If the customers is charged by its local bank it will receive documents (the monthly bank account extras) from the bank to demonstrate that. But the customer is charged by you (or your side bank). YOU (or your bank) should send some documents to the customer!! This is what Plimus needs to understand!
Anyway, the thing is that customers are extremely pissed off when Plimus informs them that money are missing. They KNOW that they sent the right amount and they KNOW that EU banks are not charging fees. Obviously a dark aura creates around Plimus. I know this by fact as the last customer before placing its order, asked us what will happen if the payment will be incomplete, as their neighbor department already had this problem. So, the word spreads quickly.
------
I understand that you are not the ones that are charging that fee; we also don't charge that fee. But the customer still sees a charge. So, the question is: who will issue the documents for this charge???
Take this up with Vendor Support
Hi there,
I believe we have exhausted the public discussion value of this topic -- so for the time being let's 'agree to disagree' on the basis that's Plimus' standpoint is as follows and that this does not match your interpretation:
Intermediary bank fees are not charged by Plimus or its bank but the customer's bank. The customer can get that relevant piece of paper from its bank by simply requesting details of the money that the bank has deducted from the final transfer. The charge is not coming from the Plimus side of the transaction but is being deducted by the clients' bank prior to making the transfer.
Wire transfers are not free in all EU countries.
I assume that you have a complaint or problem that relates to a specific transaction that has taken place. If that is the case then please lodge a transfer request to Vendor Support through the control panel and they can fully examine your situation with the benefit of viewing the actual order history, precise invoice details, bank transfer information etc., that will allow them to provide pinpoint assistance to solve the issue and relieve you of any feeling of a "dark aura surrounding Plimus."
Many thanks,
Derek, Plimus
no support
> Wire transfers are not free in all EU countries.
I know. But I am speaking about a recent customer in Spain and one in Germany. For both of them the wire transfer is free but they are still charged.
> If that is the case then please lodge a transfer request to Vendor Support through the control panel.
As explained, I already tried to get support but as usually the support is not responding. I will try again.
If you send Vendor ID I can chase up
If you message me your Vendor ID I can follow up.
Thanks, Derek